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  1. 3 points
    Mikey

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    I think people underestimate the extent to which the Japanese were still willing to fight. School teachers were grinding bamboo sticks into makeshift spears, and having daily drills with the children to practice thrusting. Thousands of small craft were requisitioned to be turned into makeshift fire boats and kamikaze vessels. It's honestly difficult to comprehend not only the determination of many military brass to die fighting (so much so that there was an attempted coup against the Emperor after he ordered the surrender), but also the willingness of the civilians to go along with it. Remember Saipan, where almost the entire civillian population committed suicide rather than surrender to American troops. Mothers jumping off cliffs with their children. Honestly though, even weirder to me is the impact of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. This also contributed heavily to Japan's surrender - some argue moreso than the atomic bomb - but for reasons that are mostly incomprehensible, and entirely outside what anyone at the time could have expected. The Japanese actually believed the USSR would come to their aid, and force the allies to accept a peace with Japan that would allow them to keep all pre-war territory (like Korea, Taiwan, Manchuria) and basically just to status-quo antibellum, with no war crimes charges or any punishments. It was a pretty insane hope, considering the soviets and Japanese had always been hostile to each other. Plus the Soviets had publicly commitedd to invading Japanese territory at the Yalta conference, which the Japanese knew about... Consider it the last straw grasps from a power that knew it was defeated, but refused to surrender.
  2. 2 points
    Not like i go outside here. so really not love lost.
  3. 2 points
    Mikey

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    Warning: long post ahead because this is a contentious issue and I had to tap a lot of sources to sketch out this picture. It is neither revisionist nor propaganda. Yours is the revisionist version, in fact. Not that that's a bad thing. Saying that the civil war was about slavery and not a noble "lost cause" is also revisionist and I wouldn't dispute that. Revisionism gets a bad rap when it's just about revising the commonly accepted historical consensus. For WW2, that consensus for decades was that the bombs ended the war. I wouldn't dispute that their importance was overstated, as I will get into. That said, the fact that Japanese civilians were being trained in hand combat to resist an invasion is well attested,. as is the massing of suicide small craft to blunt US navy and landing forces, as is what I noted about Saipan. We will never truly know the extent to which the Japanese people would have resisted an invasion, though given the fierce resistance put up by the military everywhere else, it wasn't unreasonable to fear massive casualties in the event. Especially given allied intelligence tracking large scale military build ups in southern Kyushu in the months preceding the bombings. There's a reason we were still using purple hearts made for the pacific war decades after the fact. I would also dispute that they were willing to have a clean surrender. The only documentation of this refers to Truman's knowledge that the Japanese were making peace overtures to the Soviets, which is true. The foreign office (without the approval of the military) were asking the Soviets to help negotiate a settlement keeping much of their pre-war empire in tact. Even Alperovitz, the arch revisionist from the 60s, claims largely without sources that the Japanese were willing to surrender if they could keep their Emperor and constitution. No new power structure, no war crimes punishments, the same military dictatorship they had been under. I have no problem, if that was true, with the allies rejecting that as unnectable, and it is afar cry from the end result of allowing the emperor as a figure head while otherwise transforming the nations politics and punishing other war criminals. And even that, done in the aftermath of the bombs and soviet invasions, was not actually approved by the cabinet. It took the Emperor's personal intervention to break a tie (with the entire military wing refusing even that), which led to a failed coup attempt against him by military hardliners. I will agree with you that the Soviet invasion factored heavily into the Japanese surrender, likely moreso than the bombs. But for reasons nobody could have predicted. The fact that the Japanese were holding out for Soviet assistance forcing a favorable negotiated peace - despite historical hostility and the open commitment of the Soviets to join the war - is so outside the realm of reality, that even with the transcripts and cabinet notes as proof, it is still difficult to comprehend. Truman and allied commanders were pressuring the Soviets to enter the war (in an ironic reversal of roles to 2 years prior) to split the burden of fighting the Japanese military and take pressure off an American invasion, not because they had any reason to believe the mere act of invasion itself would suddenly end the war. Tsuyoshi Hasegawa’s Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan is an interesting source that takes a third path in the traditional revisionist/traditionalist school. I don't agree with all his premises, particularly that the bomb was more about keeping the soviets out (when we have plenty of documented proof the allies wanted them in, albeit balked at Stalins demands). But while he agrees with you that ultimately it was the Soviet invasion that had a more pivotal role to play in the surrender, the shock of the bombs - and their close timing to the shock of soviet attack - was important in spurring the cabinet, and especially in providing a more palatable excuse for surrender. I cannot find any contemporary sources from Truman suggesting the bomb was about flexing on the Russians. There are diary entries and tenements from aids and journalists accompanying him that he was conflicted about the use of the bomb. You can argue, then, that if he wasn't certain about their value, such a decision should never have been made. You are correct that some high ranking generals argued afterwards that the bomb was not needed to end the war. They also suggested that the japanese were willing to surrender, for which there is absolutely no evidence, and plenty of evidence to the contrary - unless you count reverting to the pre-war status quo as a meaningful surrender. I can hardly blame them of course for thinking so, given how thoroughly hopeless the Japanese position was, a position in which any other country would have long since surrendered. I can accept an argument (that is echoed in some of those generals you note) that if Japan had been unwilling to surrender in the run up to the bombs, likely nothing short of full invasion would have induced them to. And that dropping the bombs out of a hope - but by no means a certainty or even high probability - that it could prevent the need for invasion, was unjustified. That is going to come down to how you weigh the lives of your soldiers (all casualty projections for a potential invasion was high, and included belief that Japanese civilians would have put up resistance alongside the military. Which is borne out in other incidents) against enemy civilians. I am certainly unsympathetic to the concept of Strategic bombing in general. But it is simply not true that the Japanese were ready to engage in any meaningful surrender, or that Truman and others in the administration did not hold out some hope that the bombs could somehow shock the Japanese into finally giving in, obviating the need for invasion.
  4. 2 points
    Callum

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    Nice strawman. truly an asinine response But i'll bite. a more accurate analogy would be firing a gun away from me, or at my feet. im going to be infinitely more concerned if you're firing at my feet. yes.. it is clearly started why they targeted those areas or otherwise avoided with conventional bombing. why would you target destroyed areas over undamaged military infrastructure.. these are realistically their first real tests on actual targets. Nagasaki had a few Mitsubishi plants and a large torpedo production among other things. which are pretty important targets.. which comparably if Smith and wesson was capable of producing arms to wage war on a similar scale then yes, it would be a military target.. Honestly if you're going to throw insults when trying to refute something try a little harder. it just looks kind of childish.
  5. 2 points
    All I’m saying is that if William Henry Harrison had worn a coat, America would be an intergalactic power by now.
  6. 2 points
    Xaria

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    Yuh, uh Ur anus
  7. 2 points
    Squeegee

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    Mars, cuz that’s where earth gets all its candy bars.
  8. 1 point
    Brooklyn666

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    Am I taking crazy pills? I explained liked 5 times now that even top U.S. generals. (and Truman himself!) knew that using the bomb was unnecessary and of no use to ending the war BECAUSE THEY SAID SO IN THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS! This is not a secret! It's easily accessible public information! You can read their quotes!!! None of the rest of what you said is relevant! It doesn't matter because there was never going to be an invasion because Japan was always going to surrender no matter what! Something being a consensus doesn't mean shit if it's directly contradicted by first-hand accounts from the actual event and time in question!
  9. 1 point
    Mikey

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    I believe it was the secretary of state who had Kyoto removed from any bombing campaigns due to the density of historical/heritage sites in the city. It is a spectacular beautiful city, It is a spectaculalrly beautiful area, I'll give it that. I might prefer it to Paris.
  10. 1 point
    Callum

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    That is blatantly false. If it was solely to dissuade or intimidate Stalin they would have targeted more northern areas. And not you know. key military targets.
  11. 1 point
    YugiBearz

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    nuke is nuke
  12. 1 point
    Brooklyn666

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    Of all the people on here to believe this long-debunked propaganda, you're the last person I expected.
  13. 1 point
    Gandalf

    Poll #126 - Skype v Zoom

    Honestly Microsoft teams continues to impress me in the perma-quarantine that we find ourselves in. Fuck Skype and everyone at my company that continues to use it
  14. 1 point
    Mikey

    Poll #126 - Skype v Zoom

    Circa 2010 or 2020? Because if we're talking modern times, Skype is just not a contender.
  15. 1 point
    Bradley

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    Yes, I am including Pluto. Disagree? Fight me
  16. 1 point
    The funny thing is that LBJ implemented many of the reforms Kennedy wanted to but probably wouldn't have been able to. Kennedy was not all that influential in ocngress while LBJ was.
  17. 1 point
    Lyro

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    "advanced" is relative
  18. 1 point
    Anun Tidera

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    Earth because it's the only planet in the universe that we know of that has advanced life forms on it.
  19. 0 points
    Brooklyn666

    Poll #127 - US, Japan and WW2

    This is revisionist propaganda. The atomic bombings of Japan were a war crime. Japan was already putting out peace feelers before we dropped the bombs. The only thing they wanted was to keep the emperor, which the Allies ended up giving them anyway. Their surrender also had nothing to do with the bombs, they surrendered because the USSR invaded. They didn't care about the bombs because we had already completely destroyed most of their cities through months of fire bombing. Even Truman himself said the bombing was of no material value to ending the war. His decision to use the bombs was for the sole purpose of waving his dick at Stalin. He wanted Stalin to know we had the bomb and were willing to use it.
  20. 0 points
    Brooklyn666

    Poll #124 - Solar System

    Pluto is not a planet! Get over it!
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